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	<title>Comments on: Validating web forms</title>
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	<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/</link>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2356</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 02:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2356</guid>
		<description>Luke Wrobleski just published an excellent &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.alistapart.com/articles/inline-validation-in-web-forms/&quot;&gt;article on inline validation&lt;/a&gt;. Pairing it with your article, I can offer great advice to the programmers I work with. Thanks to you both!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luke Wrobleski just published an excellent <a href="http://www.alistapart.com/articles/inline-validation-in-web-forms/">article on inline validation</a>. Pairing it with your article, I can offer great advice to the programmers I work with. Thanks to you both!</p>
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		<title>By: David Hamill</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2346</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hamill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2346</guid>
		<description>Sorry, code snippets aren&#039;t really my thing. Be careful about how much you rely on in-line validation. It can be pretty disruptive if used too much or innapropriately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, code snippets aren&#8217;t really my thing. Be careful about how much you rely on in-line validation. It can be pretty disruptive if used too much or innapropriately.</p>
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		<title>By: A W West</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2341</link>
		<dc:creator>A W West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 10:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2341</guid>
		<description>Thank you for very helpful advice.  I use my own php form handler. I built in validation to prevent spammers hijacking my form, but I would prefer instant advice about an incorrect entry alongside the field for maximum accessibilty. I am unhappy with the fact that my validation only occurs when the user clicks the Submit button. Do you know of a source of PHP code for inline validation. I do not wish to use javascript.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for very helpful advice.  I use my own php form handler. I built in validation to prevent spammers hijacking my form, but I would prefer instant advice about an incorrect entry alongside the field for maximum accessibilty. I am unhappy with the fact that my validation only occurs when the user clicks the Submit button. Do you know of a source of PHP code for inline validation. I do not wish to use javascript.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne State Web Communications Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [Friday Links] The Rush Week Edition</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2306</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne State Web Communications Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [Friday Links] The Rush Week Edition</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 12:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2306</guid>
		<description>[...] Good Usability » Validating web forms [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Good Usability » Validating web forms [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Briley</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2253</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Briley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2253</guid>
		<description>First, here&#039;s a great example of a site where the numbering of comments is vital:

http://www.edbrill.com/ebrill/edbrill.nsf/dx/erik-brooks-i-am-sick-and-tired-of-hearing-about-8.5.1?opendocument&amp;comments#anc1

Next: &quot;For all you know 150,000 people might have tried to fill it in.&quot;

Actually I do know. Given that the people who fill out this form have no place else to go to get a license in our jurisdiction, I seriously doubt they are going elsewhere over difficulties with a form.

What they will do is pick up the phone and call when they have ANY questions or encounter ANY difficulty. And they call a lot. But they never have questions or complaints about filling out this form. Our other application, yes, but not this one. And when the phone rings with website issues, it rolls downhill and I&#039;m at the bottom ;)

That stated, we&#039;re always looking for ways to improve. And improving accessibility is what&#039;s needed most.

Thanks for your feedback. I have made some changes as a result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, here&#8217;s a great example of a site where the numbering of comments is vital:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.edbrill.com/ebrill/edbrill.nsf/dx/erik-brooks-i-am-sick-and-tired-of-hearing-about-8.5.1?opendocument&#038;comments#anc1">http://www.edbrill.com/ebrill/edbrill.nsf/dx/erik-brooks-i-am-sick-and-tired-of-hearing-about-8.5.1?opendocument&#038;comments#anc1</a></p>
<p>Next: &#8220;For all you know 150,000 people might have tried to fill it in.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually I do know. Given that the people who fill out this form have no place else to go to get a license in our jurisdiction, I seriously doubt they are going elsewhere over difficulties with a form.</p>
<p>What they will do is pick up the phone and call when they have ANY questions or encounter ANY difficulty. And they call a lot. But they never have questions or complaints about filling out this form. Our other application, yes, but not this one. And when the phone rings with website issues, it rolls downhill and I&#8217;m at the bottom <img src='http://www.goodusability.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>That stated, we&#8217;re always looking for ways to improve. And improving accessibility is what&#8217;s needed most.</p>
<p>Thanks for your feedback. I have made some changes as a result.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hamill</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2245</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hamill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 08:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2245</guid>
		<description>Hi Timothy, I&#039;ve responded to the email you sent me with these questions. I&#039;d also suggest that you don&#039;t use the number of people filling it in as a success measure. For all you know 150,000 people might have tried to fill it in. 

Thanks for the tip on the comments. Until now my current approach has worked OK. I guess I haven&#039;t had someone ask 2 questions before I&#039;ve had a chance to answer the 1st one. Keep it up though, it&#039;s all very interesting. I&#039;ll look into the comments thing. 

Until then, I&#039;ve messed about with the comment time in order to put it in the right order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Timothy, I&#8217;ve responded to the email you sent me with these questions. I&#8217;d also suggest that you don&#8217;t use the number of people filling it in as a success measure. For all you know 150,000 people might have tried to fill it in. </p>
<p>Thanks for the tip on the comments. Until now my current approach has worked OK. I guess I haven&#8217;t had someone ask 2 questions before I&#8217;ve had a chance to answer the 1st one. Keep it up though, it&#8217;s all very interesting. I&#8217;ll look into the comments thing. </p>
<p>Until then, I&#8217;ve messed about with the comment time in order to put it in the right order.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Briley</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2241</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Briley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2241</guid>
		<description>Speaking of usability, as someone who comments on a lot of blog posts, I highly recommend the numbering of comments. It makes it much easier to be clear about which comment is being referenced in a later comment.

I agree that the examples you&#039;ve given are better solutions to validation than &quot;one dialog box at a time&quot; if you have a standard form.

However my problem is that I don&#039;t have a standard form. The form I&#039;m enhancing for screen readers makes extensive use of progressive disclosure.

The point of using progressive disclosure is to keep from asking the user stupid questions. If they tell you they have no prior experience, it&#039;s lame to ask them where they worked.

It works in a similar fashion for education and criminal history.

For example, if a user answers everything but &quot;do/will you have the normal education required for this&quot;, they&#039;d only have one field that still needs answering at THAT MOMENT. But as soon as they answer &quot;Yes&quot;, they get 3 new questions. If they answer &quot;No&quot;, they get 1 new question.

About 30,000 people have successfully filled out this form in the past 6 years. But reconfiguring this for screen readers has been a challenge. I now have the screen reader advancing to the correct field based on their answer and that was really tough. But coming up with a decent validation scheme for a form utilizing progressive disclosure being filled out by users utilizing screen readers has been even more of a challenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of usability, as someone who comments on a lot of blog posts, I highly recommend the numbering of comments. It makes it much easier to be clear about which comment is being referenced in a later comment.</p>
<p>I agree that the examples you&#8217;ve given are better solutions to validation than &#8220;one dialog box at a time&#8221; if you have a standard form.</p>
<p>However my problem is that I don&#8217;t have a standard form. The form I&#8217;m enhancing for screen readers makes extensive use of progressive disclosure.</p>
<p>The point of using progressive disclosure is to keep from asking the user stupid questions. If they tell you they have no prior experience, it&#8217;s lame to ask them where they worked.</p>
<p>It works in a similar fashion for education and criminal history.</p>
<p>For example, if a user answers everything but &#8220;do/will you have the normal education required for this&#8221;, they&#8217;d only have one field that still needs answering at THAT MOMENT. But as soon as they answer &#8220;Yes&#8221;, they get 3 new questions. If they answer &#8220;No&#8221;, they get 1 new question.</p>
<p>About 30,000 people have successfully filled out this form in the past 6 years. But reconfiguring this for screen readers has been a challenge. I now have the screen reader advancing to the correct field based on their answer and that was really tough. But coming up with a decent validation scheme for a form utilizing progressive disclosure being filled out by users utilizing screen readers has been even more of a challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hamill</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2237</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hamill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2237</guid>
		<description>Hi Timothy. But the description of the problem has disappeared. On a very short form form with perhaps 1 or 2 fields, you will be able to get away with an alert. But on a form with numerous fields you rely on the user remembering each of the problems. How does your approach work when there are multiple issues? Either you need to list all of the problems on one alert (and then only focus on the first field) or generate a new alert after the previous issue has been resolved. Both of these approaches are demanding a lot from the user&#039;s short reserve of patience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Timothy. But the description of the problem has disappeared. On a very short form form with perhaps 1 or 2 fields, you will be able to get away with an alert. But on a form with numerous fields you rely on the user remembering each of the problems. How does your approach work when there are multiple issues? Either you need to list all of the problems on one alert (and then only focus on the first field) or generate a new alert after the previous issue has been resolved. Both of these approaches are demanding a lot from the user&#8217;s short reserve of patience.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Briley</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2235</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Briley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2235</guid>
		<description>Also you wrote:
&quot;Don’t use alert boxes

Javascript alert boxes aren’t good for delivering validation messages on forms. The image below illustrates the issue. In order to proceed, the user must click OK. When they do so, the message disappears. So they need to remember the problem or re-submit the form to read the message again.&quot;

If after clicking &quot;ok&quot;, focus is immediately moved to the field in error, the user will &#039;usually&#039; be able to handle the problem. The key is not to make the user go searching for the field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also you wrote:<br />
&#8220;Don’t use alert boxes</p>
<p>Javascript alert boxes aren’t good for delivering validation messages on forms. The image below illustrates the issue. In order to proceed, the user must click OK. When they do so, the message disappears. So they need to remember the problem or re-submit the form to read the message again.&#8221;</p>
<p>If after clicking &#8220;ok&#8221;, focus is immediately moved to the field in error, the user will &#8216;usually&#8217; be able to handle the problem. The key is not to make the user go searching for the field.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hamill</title>
		<link>http://www.goodusability.co.uk/2009/08/form-validation/comment-page-1/#comment-2236</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hamill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.goodusability.co.uk/?p=1798#comment-2236</guid>
		<description>Hi Timothy, it&#039;s actually pretty easy for people who use screen readers such as Jaws to skip back to the top of the page (if you use good mark-up). In fact if you observe someone using a screen reader, it&#039;s like they&#039;re within navigating the page. They can do this as long as you use the correct mark-up for headings. Modern screen readers have keys for skipping between header tags.

If your validation messages appear directly after a heading 1 for instance, a Jaws user can just navigate through the headings in order to get back there. 

The other option is that they can tab through the remaining fields until they get to the next field that has a validation error.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Timothy, it&#8217;s actually pretty easy for people who use screen readers such as Jaws to skip back to the top of the page (if you use good mark-up). In fact if you observe someone using a screen reader, it&#8217;s like they&#8217;re within navigating the page. They can do this as long as you use the correct mark-up for headings. Modern screen readers have keys for skipping between header tags.</p>
<p>If your validation messages appear directly after a heading 1 for instance, a Jaws user can just navigate through the headings in order to get back there. </p>
<p>The other option is that they can tab through the remaining fields until they get to the next field that has a validation error.</p>
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